sustainable lighting design with faye robinson of treacle studio
the green & healthy places podcast focuses on wellbeing and sustainability in real estate and hospitality.
in episode 058 i’m in the UK talking to faye robinson from treacle studio, manchester - an independent architectural lighting consultancy providing bespoke lighting designs for interior & exterior spaces.
Topics include circular design, waste management, wellness lighting, recycling, standardization challenges for sustainable lighting fixtures, and more.
orluna circular design lighting solutions
waste management in lighting in buildings and interiors
Matt Morley
Let's jump in. I know you've got over a decade or 15 years plus experience in the lighting industry, we've had conversations privately in the past about sustainability within this sector. And I think it's, it's often a neglected corner of the overall real estate sustainability picture within an interior fit out or buildings and architecture.
So I'd love to hear your perspective, particularly on one area. Let's start with that around waste in lighting. So what are the main sources of waste during the fit-out process as it relates to lighting?
Faye Robinson
Yeah, I'd say definitely, kind of across the board, it's that whole kind of strip out process. Because it's all been based around a very linear approach. There's kind of a disconnect there.
So I see probably more in the office world with an entire lighting scheme removed from a building, it's stripping it right back to the core, the shell, and then effectively, putting everything new that goes in there. It's those missed opportunities, really, in terms of reusing, furniture, wall finishes, floor finishes, and then of course, luminaires.
So invariably, in most cases, I'd say, luminaires are removed. And that's it, you don't really get to hear about what happens beyond that.
recycling of lighting in real estate and interiors
Matt Morley
So we talk often about the idea of putting in LED lights as an initial step towards having a greener approach to lighting, but what opportunities do you see around recycling those luminaires, we've discussed the idea of waste being an issue, reuse one option, is there a recycling solution? Or what could be done in terms of creating luminaires that can be recycled?
Faye Robinson
Well, there's lots of ways that you can address it and the whole process. So you know, we've had since 2005, the WEEE directive (see here) - waste electrical and electronic equipment, recycling, the directive that basically reduces landfill, caused by those products.
So essentially, this kind of two levels of how this is approached, and the onus is generally on the manufacturer, to apply an amount to the product when you purchase it to cost in the recycling afterlife of that product.
Now, as with most kind of directives, it can get quite bureaucratic in terms of designating, you know, the process when you inherit the space who's responsible from that product if you've not necessarily selected yourself, but there are two bodies, in particular in the UK that I know of, that are working on making that process simpler.
So there's a bench called Lumi, calm, and there's also a bunch called Rico lights. Now, these are nonprofit organizations that basically help smooth that process out.
That's something that on a B2B or a B2C scenario, there's options there to help the process of recycling luminaires, when you have them on site, and you can't reuse them.
upcycling of lighting in real estate and interiors
And then there's also the next level, which is the remanufacturing approach. So it's a little crossover there, I think with the Luma con and Rico light, but also, there's kind of a collection of organizations that are popping up and to deal with or help solve that problem.
I know of there's a few things I think Rico do fall into that category, but then there's also a bunch called EGCG and lighting that also look at that and then several other manufacturers are offering a remanufacturing process.
I've done some stuff with TRICARE before and you know I can rattle quite a few off for you. But there's there are options there.
Orluna circualr design lighting
Circular economy design in real estate lighting and interiors
Matt Morley
Just to dig into that a little bit about the idea of re-manufacturing. So, then we can get into circular design, that was going to be my next question. But re manufacturing, that does imply that somehow we need to get that luminaire and those light fixtures all the way back to the manufacturer, from the time of the strip out, do you see that happening?
Faye Robinson
The lack of awareness is there but often the smaller companies have more agility, that are honing in on this. There are companies that will actually buy back the luminaires. So if you wanted to completely refit your space that will buy back the luminaire. And then they will, you know, update the the led the light source element and then resell that. So that's that's one option.
And then, of course, there is the full 360, where it goes back to the manufacturer. But obviously, what's inherent with that is that the labeling system has always been there on that luminaire, it could have been there for goodness knows how many years. So you need these companies and resources that fill in the gaps that would be missing otherwise.
Matt Morley
So in other words, said I had a target of 50 room, boutique hotel, and we're creating a hotel sustainability plan for them, half of the rooms are fitted out with LEDs, but there's some that clearly aren't. And so we start looking into this and we think okay, well, first of all, we need to take out some of these luminaires.
And they might be there for a decade or so who knows that rather than just putting that into a random white electrical goods recycling bin, there may be the opportunity to re manufacture those but how would we find out?
It's about identifying, first of all those those middlemen potentially those companies that can buy and refurbish essentially and resell, that will be something that wasn't on my radar.
Anticipating recycling needs in advance in a sustainability plan
Faye Robinson
Totally. I mean, it's kind of a whole mind shift, isn't it? Really, you're almost relying on a stocktake of what you've already got in the spaces to kind of preemptively lineup, you know, who you go to, what your options are.
And it's it gets that shift, isn't it from that kind of linear approach, we need to kind of, you know, these these all these different kind of elements that we now need to consider. And there are people now arriving on the scene that can that can kind of help out with that whole process.
Matt Morley
I think that's a really interesting idea. And I'm literally going through it at the moment whereby Facilities Management in a hotel team, there's a bunch of electrical goods that just somehow break down ended up possibly on the on the rubbish tip, we don't quite know, but the idea of working with and advising and providing those solutions to the FM team, so that they don't have that headache, because it can clearly see it's okay, what do we do or housekeeping sees a luminaire breaks Facilities Management come in, they take it away, it just ends up in the bin might just about end up in a recycling bin if we're lucky.
But if, for example, I or someone helping that team to think about these things, or to say, look, here are the solutions, X, Y and Z go into X bin or y bin or they can be called upon to come and take these things away. And therefore you think sometimes it's about making it as easy as possible, right?
So finding those companies, presented them to the client and in hoping that that then leads to you know, as as little waste as possible. So that's sort of almost a zero waste approach when it comes to, for example, the light fittings and luminaires.
interoperability of lighting fixtures in real estate interiors
How standardized and interoperable are most light fixtures and component parts? Because obviously, that circular idea, you know, one thing that is becoming increasingly apparent is around plastics. For example, when you know, on a plastics mix, if you have more than one type of plastic, there is no way that's ever getting recycled.
So single types of plastic like pet PE tea, that's actually not too bad in the sense that we can do something with it. We know it's just made of one type of plastic, it can go into that bin, it's it can be recycled, and it can be given a new life, it can at least stay in the circle.
Faye Robninson
There are bodies that have popped up, I think the main issue for the lighting industry at the moment, it's the speed, the LEDs have kind of progressed, in terms of the technology of the meno. It's smaller, brighter, you know, everybody's kind of plowed ahead.
As we've tried to shoehorn this technology into existing luminaires I'm saving time on an r&d element that maybe should have been considered a little bit more.
But people seized upon this, and I think really the cleanest way it's been done is potentially if you think of like domestic lamps, LED lamps that we've all now starting to use, that's the cleanest transition that's happened.
So it's quite good in terms of the more kind of architectural side of luminaires, because of that kind of speed that the LED technology has happened. And the fact we've shoehorned in this technology into existing shapes of luminaires, there's been a bit of a disconnect there, where you come to recycle, and you can't just pop the light source. So you've got to remove the whole luminaire because one isn't detachable from the other.
So, in particular, there's an organization called Saga, which is trying to standardize that kind of connectivity within luminaires, but also along the chain, there as well, in terms of how, you know, drivers then connect to the light source, and how that driver then connects to the controls side of things. So that kind of standardization and making the whole light and installation serviceable is what they're trying to work towards.
So there's a group of manufacturers and specialists involved in that. I'm keeping an eye on that and just seeing how that pans. pans out, really. And so I'd say that's the more prominent kind of a group that's dealing with this at the moment. And then obviously, what we've we've talked about before, in terms of the recycling side of things, the remanufacture is near the road,
standardization of sustainable lighting products
Matt Morley
I think you introduced quite a big idea there, it’s like what happened in the beginning of the Industrial Revolution, right? Where at some point, someone had to standardize screws, first of all, invent a screw, and then standardize them, just like they did with with railroad tracks across Europe in fact.
And we're still having issues with railroad tracks a day where the tracks themselves aren't. I think it's something between how the Chinese do it and how they do it in the Middle East or something they're trying to create a railroad between the two and it's almost as if there is a need to go through a second transformation for a greener economy, not along just standardization lines for its own sake to make building these products easier, but in terms of that circular design components, they need to be standardized almost for a different end not to make everyone's lives easier but interoperable and inter recyclable. That's a big idea to get one's head around as an industry.
Faye Robinson
Yeah, totally, you can understand it from a manufacturers point of view. You know, how do you define your product - it's a complete shift in mindset, and you can understand that it's going to be maybe smaller steps to start, but we need to pick up the pace a little bit, I think.
EU legislation to reduce waste from real estate and interiors
Matt Morley
I think they've just passed the new legislation around USB-C charging cables, really standardizing that from, I think it's 2025 onwards around how we're all what cables we are to buy and be allowed to use with our mobile phones. So that there's, there's less waste, because of all this, not just convenience, but also a huge amount of waste.
Apparently, when you look at the figures, they're small steps, as you say, there's perhaps an industry wide problem in your case.
Anyway, digging into some of your work and what you do around a case study or two that you can think of from your history of where you've been able to integrate a more circular approach, are there any examples from your past that you could describe to give us a sense of how it can be an opportunity within reach for lighting designers to use a bit more circular design principles?
Circular design principles in lighting examples
Faye Robinson
Totally, I mean, we're very fortunate at the moment within the industry, we've modeled it, it's actually launched in 2021. We've got the TM 66, circular economy, document technical memorandum. And, essentially, that's been written by people within the the lighting industry. And it's got some very useful kind of crib sheets that run alongside that.
So we have the questions, or we have prompts, basically, both on the manufacturing and design side to apply. And that's something that I will be or have been applying to projects. And not it's not just case. So I've done quite a bit of light art recently, and even with that kind of element, something that's a temporary installation, I'm thinking about how, once those luminaires have been used in that installation, what happens to them afterwards, is that thinking beyond your initial handover, you know, that you've got responsibility beyond that.
So one in particular, was when I worked on the Havelock woven scheme, which was a light art installation, and that basically used a lot of LED tape, effectively. And what's happened is I've worked with the integrator team on that, and we have basically donated that led to a scheme within Manchester, which is helping to rehome you know, what people without homes effectively the homeless, there's a scheme there. And that led is going into the that installation, you know, to light the spaces. So it's got a life beyond that initial installation.
I worked with them a team, they're a manufacturer effectively, who helped install this creation. And then we work together to try and find another route forward. You know, for the luminary, we examined whether we could reuse it in the fit outs of the actual space.
And then we also had a backup scenario as well, where it may not work necessarily with the interior scheme, because as you know, you have so many different people involved in that kind of process. It's generally a different team that you work with on a color scheme than it is on the fitout. side.
So we basically needed a plan B in case it didn't work with a scheme that was intended for the fit out. So yeah, we, we worked with various charities, and in Manchester, just to see what was you know, if anybody would be interested in taking up that and yet, they they are hand off.
sustainability in temporary lighting installations
Matt Morley
So there's one particularly on small scale, or rather short term projects, has to do with the scale more than the duration of a project. It's an almost, it's more acute, because clearly the end, the end of that at least, the first sort of circle of its life, is within sight. And so there's more of an onus on you to think about what happens afterwards, but you can see how it also connects with the idea of within a building, beginning to plan ahead for the end of the life of those luminaires. For when it comes to that you have a plan in place already.
So whether it's a short term or mid term, you know, where it's gonna go, you have a plan, of course, that might, it might not work out that way. You might need a plan B or Plan C, but you have at least a Plan A lined up for what happens when? Yeah, I like that. And are there particular brands that you favor, at the moment in terms of brands that are really on board with the idea of circular economy, circular design, and reducing waste?
lighting brands with a sustainable circular design concept
Faye Robinson
Yeah, totally. So I'm doing a lot of work at the moment with Orluna who I think really have set the standard in terms of the whole Circular Economy approach within luminaires. You know, they've got the whole, the labeling system ready, the return system set up and ready to go and boxes ticked, in terms of assessing them alongside that, that tm 66 document that I mentioned previously. But I'm also looking at, like smaller, more agile companies.
Another one called LumiAdd who are a small team actually using 3d printing to produce luminaires. Now, but at the core of that, you know, the material they're using is the, the corn or the sugar cane, is it PLA material that they use, which is can effectively, it's an industrial process, but it can be broken down and recycled effectively. So they were an interesting bunch now, but keep in mind those sugar, the cornstarch, it's effectively a plastic alternative, right?
And they are using mycelium for packaging. And there's a core theme running throughout this where they have, you know, a set number of components and each one's interchangeable. So you don't have to, completely change the whole luminaire, you can pop one part off and change it with another.
what is wellness lighting?
Matt Morley
I wanted to switch gears thinking more in terms of the people aspect, so the impact that lighting can have on us as occupants of a space, we've been doing some work together on a medical wellness spa in Knightsbridge in London, and that raised the question with our team around wellness lighting, and what exactly that entails.
Circadian lighting might be something that's already on people's radar, that 24 hour cycle. But you know, I'll be honest, I'll often go as far as suggesting that it needs to be a blue and white light spectrum during the day to energize and provide a space that is adapted for work and productivity, and then clearly after dark or in the evenings, you need something of a more amber color so that you're not disrupting sleep. But beyond that, I don't think there's much more I could talk to you about on that subject. So as an expert on this, I'm going to use the opportunity to, first of all dispel any myths and also to understand really what's going on here.
Faye Robinson
Yeah, totally, I think you've kind of hit the nail on the head there. For me, at the moment, the the technology that's been labeled circadian rhythm, and lighting is effectively tunable, dynamic, white light, and the research into its effects and applying it within a space and its effects on humans, you know, the use of the space is still relatively recent.
Interestingly, I was sat in a talk a couple of weeks ago, with a neuro-scientist who actually specializes in the circadian process and the effect of artificial lights on that process. And the kind of levels that were mentioned in terms of light output that actually trigger the circadian process are way higher than anything that we're producing with the technology that we currently have, that we're currently labeling as circadian lighting, so I think just take a step back on that.
Anything that is inside, you know, we're trying to mimic the natural world and make it more comfortable for us to be in. And I think it's, it is exactly that kind of mapping the natural progression and changes of the color appearance of light through the day, to enhance the the interior environment that we're in, rather than it's having a more immediate effect on our mood or energy levels per se.
But it definitely, you know, it does help that idea that things are changing around you, rather than it being a static color - that gives you a pleasant sense of time passing. I'd say more than anything else.
Interior Lighting and biophilic design
Matt Morley
Well, the idea of biophilic design, really is what you just described the idea of bringing the outside world in recreating a natural environment in our dense urban world and just trying to align it based on the principle of our lives and nature being a model upon which to sort of try to stick to as best we can, despite the fact that we might be for example, working long hours in a dense urban environment in a huge skyscraper building rather than outdoors in our back garden or what have you.
I think that's the way through rather than throwing it away and saying, Well, there's actually nothing to it or no real evidence behind it, if we can accept that daylight is such a powerful force on our sense of wellbeing, and all the goodness that can come from that, such as providing energy for photosynthesis in plants. In the same way, it clearly has an impact on how we feel in an indoor space. And so perhaps circadian lighting is really, if anything, just trying to align with that when there is limited natural light indoors.
energy efficient lighting in real estate and interiors
Now the other topic to touch on is energy efficiency - the idea that office buildings might have tunable lights, they might be adjusting their light intensity during the day, or frankly, not in 99% of the cases, I think most offices pretty much have an on and off. But what can be done in terms of the lighting system, perhaps not just the luminaire, but other sensors and controls, monitors and switches? What would a perfect case study looked like in terms of setting things up so that we're using energy in an efficient, optimal manner within, let's say, a large office building?
smart lighting technology
Faye Robinson
Yeah, I'd definitely say it's embracing smart tech, essentially, we were just talking about earlier that the idea that we're mimicking the outside inside, that wealth of technology it's adaptable, it learns, you can pretty much personalize the space that you have, for how you are using it. And doing that with multi sensors, monitoring carbon dioxide alongside, the natural light in the space relative to artificial lights, balancing things out, and really monitoring how spaces are used then allowing it to adapt, for example, of an evening when maybe the space isn't as full.
I mean, the whole kind of work space scenario is changing, or has changed. And, you know, officers aren't as busy as they used to be, why is the lighting always on when there's no one in there? It's trusting that tech to adjust and make those changes for you.
Matt Morley
So embracing the technology that's available to create lighting conditions that via an ongoing monitoring process can automatically adjust to usage. So I have the kind of density of how many people are in there and where they are, possibly at given times of day, you might imagine certain lighting at lunchtime, for example, being slightly different during the lunch break to, you know, mid morning and adapting to outside conditions If it's a dark, gloomy day, then no matter how much glazing you have in your building frontage, you're going to be in gray flat light inside. So on those days, it might need to compensate a bit more?
Faye Robinson
Oh, yeah, totally. And I think also, it's embracing the idea of having, you know, some further personalization where I think we've all know realize that we all like being in at different times of the day, we might all like working in slightly different locations or having a different feel in the environment that we're in.
combining overhead and task lighting for wellness
Matt Morley
That could presumably also be something as simple as a desk lamp or a task lamp so you adjust that to your personal settings is assuming that the overhead lighting isn't completely dominating everything if that was set slightly lower than you could also adjust your own immediate environment with a task lamp or a desk lamp.
Faye Robinson
Yeah, that's exactly what we need. And it what's very strange as we're a step behind how it was made may be approached in mainland Europe where you see much lower kind of ambient levels in the background and it's tough lighting everywhere. Yeah, it's been a bit of a bugbear for lighting designers for some time.
Matt Morley
Not a problem here in Barcelona. They have particular tastes in leaving lobby buildings, residential buildings, pretty much dark apart from one or two well chosen lamps in the reception entrance areas and it creates ambiance and mood that just speaks homeliness and comfort and, and it's incredibly inviting walking into a space that isn't lit with intense white overhead lighting.