talking wellbeing interiors with design well studios
The ‘Green & Healthy Places’ podcast series takes a deep-dive into the role of sustainability, wellbeing and community in real estate and hospitality.
In this episode we’re in Portland, Oregon in the US with Michelle Ifversen of Design Well Studios - optimizing built environments for wellbeing.
We discuss a term that is more common in the US than in Europe, namely ‘building biology’ - a combination of healthy building strategies and Biophilia or nature-connectedness.
Her in-person and virtual assessments of residential environments address issues affecting the health of occupiers, the risks of off-gassing from flooring and wall paint, how to mitigate the risk of Electro-Magnetic Fields (EMFs) in homes and how to safely manage your smart home technology.
Michelle has a lot of strings to her bow, having co-developed a lab test for indoor air quality, launched her own collection of biophilic nature-inspired artworks and delivering landscape design services for clients as well to bring the outside world indoors.
She’s devoted to all things natural and healthy in the home environment, so we had lots to talk about!
EPISODE NOTES
GUEST / MICHELLE IFVERSEN / DESIGN WELL STUDIOS
Botaniculture artworks
FULL TRANSCRIPT FOLLOWS COURTESY OF OTTER.AI - EXCUSE TYPOS
Matt Morley
Welcome, Michelle, thanks for joining us. Really nice to have you on board all the way from Portland, Oregon. I wanted to kick things off just with an overview from your side onwhat you do with design well studios and how you got to where you are today.
michelle ifversen
Thanks for having me, Matt. I've been inspired by biophilic design and healthy living spaces for quite some time now. I grew up in Santa Barbara, California, beautiful place, but everything grew there. And we lived in an area where it was a little bit more damp. And so I developed a lot of allergies and suffered with that. And everybody's like, oh, you're allergic to mold? Well, mold is an allergy, but it's not supposed to be inside of you...
michelle ifversen
I love science, I grew up watching surgeries, believe it or not. But My mother is a renowned landscape architect. And my father was a builder. My birth father was a sculptor. So I love art and design as well. So the the science part and the design part, really, you know, I love I've always loved that. I wanted to become a doctor. And I was taking my anatomy classes. And long story short, I walked in to do my cadaver labs and the formaldehyde was so overwhelming that I couldn't complete it. So I went to art school in Europe.
Matt Morley
It sounds like an interesting combination between art and science and an element of medicine and perhaps some influences from landscaping. And some point that leads you towards biophilic design and wellbeing design then?
michelle ifversen
Exactly, it was infused in my environment. And whether I liked it or not, it was happening, when I was designing my son's room 20 years ago, it was very difficult to find healthy building materials or healthy material furnishings. And so I researched heavily, and took a while to find one place in Oregon, actually Pacific Rim furniture with no toxins, no, no adhesives that were, you know, bad for you. And so I started that path while I was a designer and doing information architecture for high tech companies.
michelle ifversen
I moved back to Santa Barbara after living in a couple of different places on the west coast. And met a naturopathic doctor. And so we got to chatting. And she had a house call and noticed how gnarly their environment was, how it was damp, it was off gassing. And we got together and we created a company that that did these house calls these environmental assessments and then later on, I got into building biology and studied all about building science healthy building and remodeling and electromagnetic field testing EMF and really dove deeper into VOC is an indoor air quality. Okay,
Matt Morley
so there's lots in that. So we're let's loop back around to the building biology piece because I think that's it's really valuable information. But you mentioned the scene in Portland, Oregon 20 years ago. And if you like struggling to find anywhere that was delivering on this concept of sort of healthy materials and healthy furniture, how are things today and how does it compare, for example, with what you see, for example, down in California, in terms of the rest of the US, there are certain parts of the world that seem to be really pushing ahead and with availability Now for these things or leading from the path, or leading the market, how is your local scene?
michelle ifversen
Well, I'm not shopping for cribs anymore. But for healthy fabrics and furnishings, it's not fabulous. I mean, you definitely still have to source and a lot of this stuff comes from Europe. And it comes from California. So we do have a mattress manufacturer here that gets natural latex material and he makes beds and so I source a lot of those for my clients. You know, I do a lot of used furniture have you and repre upholstery, it. There's a real upholstery company here that does all sustainable upholstery, and natural latex and wool and things like that, too. It's there are some places, but especially furnishings. Really, really tough. really tough. There are some places that do I work with a lot of artists that will create furniture for me, right, so we'll design furniture together and for jobs, and so will source you know, really nice sustainable wood and I, I coached them on healthy finishings and adhesives and things like that to, to make that. So it's still in that creative stage. But it's not readily available, where you just go walk down the street, and here's an eco store, like in London, you know, they have a lot more to offer.
Matt Morley
Yeah, I think I think probably the reality is that, in most even major cities, still, there's a sense that it's a it's a niche market, but it's it's then about availability. And you're right that the European market is now pretty strong on that. But that, yeah, it doesn't necessarily mean we have direct access at retail, but we can get to things pretty quickly within the European market. And there's some, there's someone out there doing everything that we need. And I think that's, that's a real sign of the times. And I think it'll just carry on, we don't know how far it'll go in terms of becoming mainstream, but I think it'll become increasingly accepted. So let's look back round then. Because you mentioned building biology. And I think, you know, those are perhaps two words that don't necessarily go together or that Oh, yeah, for sure. Give us the give us a 32nd intro into building biology from your perspective.
michelle ifversen
Building Biology is about building science and and creating built environments that simulate nature. So breathable walls, you know, healthy indoor air space, air quality. You know, you know, great flooring without adhesives, and it really trying to mimic outdoors to indoors. And you know, I love technology but we have to put a limit on it, there's a right way to use it safely. And we can talk more about EMF later. But building biology is just that it's breathable, livable spaces that support humans. So I call it human code, rather than building code.
Matt Morley
That's an interesting take on things. And then so when you do your environmental wellness assessments, then I'm guessing 99% of the time you're going into spaces that are not built along those principles. So they're not buildings that have a builder nology concept behind them. So in fact, probably the opposite, right, you're going in, there's some kind of a problem that's been identified, whether it's visually something that's appearing on the walls, or there's a health issue for residents of the home, would that be correct?
michelle ifversen
Absolutely. Yeah. Most people get to me from their wellness providers, that they recommend having them check out their home, or they are they're like, I've gone down all this health, these, this this road to you know, having their health being compromised, and they think that there's something is cut stemming from their environment, right? So they're, it's kind of a detective work, they want to figure out where the source is coming from. And that's a lot of our business. It's, it's not as sexy as his biophilic design. But it is a supportive work, and I really enjoy it. And I've helped a lot of people over the years determine what's going on in their environment, because it's so they're so used to their environment. They're so used to their home and they're, they're not objective, right. They're like they think that's normal things are normal that off gassing of the paint of the of the flooring is normal.
michelle ifversen
You know, I've got so many cases where people will build brand new homes or their remodel and they'll put luxury vinyl tile. I don't know if you have that in Europe, but it's Yeah, yep. It looks great. It's beautiful, easy to clean, whatnot. But it a lot of them have adhesives in it that with formaldehyde, formaldehyde and metal off gas up to 15 years, especially if they don't have a system, an air system that will purify it and filter that out. So I do on site assessments here locally in Portland. And then now since pandemic, I've had to there's to do more virtual assessments. So I've been doing virtual assessments for people all over the country, and I work together, don't assume they work together. But I've connected with a toxicologist and immunologist that works with people all over the world. There. There are situations where they test their blood for mycotoxins, mold, and they want to know what to do about their environment. And so I come in and consult with them and do a virtual assessment through, you know, laptop or FaceTime, and take a look at their environment. And we have a really lengthy questionnaire to determine. And I've been able to help a lot of people that way, this feels really good.
Matt Morley
And so if you were to do an in person assessment, which presumably in a local context, post COVID, will become the norm again, for you or the preference.
michelle ifversen
I found myself getting exposed to mold and to chemicals. And so I know how to, I know how to what supplements to take, I know I sauna, and I know how to do that. And we're the gear, but it's not something that I, I want to do so much anymore. comes with a health risk rate.
Matt Morley
Right. And he mentioned EMF stem. So for those that perhaps aren't aware of what it involves, why you would need to test for it, and how you identify it, what's your process there.
michelle ifversen
So a lot of people come to me when they are looking to purchase a property, right? Like yesterday, I just did a property that was right next to a corridor where it's people run up and down it and above it, there's transmission power lines. So they wanted to know there, this person is very active, they're very healthy, they want to know what's going on. And so they think that, hey, there might be a connection, I want to check it out. So I go and I do an assessment where I check first gives me electric and magnetic fields. And we adhere to the precautionary principle, from building biology standards between you know, what's, what's low to high, and the health risks that could be coming from that now. There are a lot of studies, studies are still happening. But like with 5g, it's so very new. So there's not a lot of studies out there. There's studies with 2g and 3g. But 5g is completely a different animal, a different beast, it's small cell microwave radiation, and it has to be close not for the way. But when you're close to it, it's definitely it's definitely more harmful. I shouldn't say I don't want to go down that road too much.
michelle ifversen
When it comes to EMF, like I have a cell phone, but I use a case that has that shields it I'm hardwired with Ethernet and my computer, we don't have Wi Fi here, we have our Roku, which is a television. It's kind of like a Apple TV. And it's hardwired. So we still have the benefit. We have a outdoor speaker auto stereo, we plug our, our stereo into it. So it's all connected and it still sounds fabulous. So there's ways to do it. You know, I've been doing a lot of these smart homes and they're very savvy. They're very cool. I mean, you can talk to your your or not talk to you but find out how many eggs are in your frigerator I love the site. I love technology. I love it. But is it necessary and how much do we need? Right? And so
Matt Morley
It's a fascinating moment in history with two things going on in parallel - a return to nature on the one hand and a massive technological explosion on the other. Reconnecting with nature via biophilia isn’t about going backwards but nor do we want to neglect our evolutionary history completely, that’s the risk. So we end up with this dichotomy between the two tendencies, it can be hard to bridge the two sometimes I feel.
michelle ifversen
Just around air quality, then because I am conscious that that's going to be one of these think like hot hot topics for a few years to come for obvious reasons. So yeah, how do you work with indoor air quality? And what sort of techniques are you thinking about in terms of measuring and also improving indoor air quality?
michelle ifversen
So I was thinking of what you're saying about technology, they have the, the white the apps on your phone that can check your air and things like that. So that's that dichotomy you were talking about, like, yes, it's great that you're checking your vo C's and your your air and whatnot and your health of your home. But then you're using Wi Fi, right all over to us that purpose. So we don't do that.
michelle ifversen
We have a developed a kit with, with the lab here in the US, that tests for over 500 different voc volatile organic compounds, or chemicals. And it's a tube that you put on the test to the pump. And it's about an hour and a half test, and it just takes in the data, holds it in the tube, and then we send it off to the lab, and then we get a very professional lab report back that I go over with my clients. And it goes to the source where the where it's coming from. And so it's very, it's a great tool to analyze your air what's going on, if you did sit or remodel, if there's something going on in your environment, you think you don't know what that odor is or what's happening, we were able to determine what you know, where the source is coming from, and then to help to consult with them to remediate it.
Matt Morley
So it's like a deep dive analysis of the indoor air quality at a specific point in time,
michelle ifversen
right is a blood test. Yes, like a blood test for your body, right. And so it's a, it's a great way to know what's going on there. And we test for mold, vo C's as well. So if there's something going on that way, and then we have a isolated formaldehyde test, which is fantastic, because you don't have to strip away the other chemicals to get to that particular chemical. It just is a pure appear to us. So we can ship these. And people can buy these pumps, and they hope they have them for tool in their home. And they can use them in their office or car, their van build, they're there, they're there, kids dorm, or their, their their parents assisted living place and they can use it in or they can use it again after they remediate. To have that it's it's it's, it's a great tool.
Matt Morley
I think the the the underlying concept there is that there is there are now just a plethora of low grade and not that effective air quality monitors out there. And this Dyson fan in the corner of my home office here would it would be included in that it just can't work it out. If it's not, it's not the standard that we need in order to get a really decent look. And most of what's happening sort of desktop monitors are not going to get there. So I think the idea of having what you're describing as a, like a blood test for your and then perhaps, you know, slightly more slightly more not medical grade better than an upgraded air quality monitor doing a sort of continuous analysis such as that aware and companies like that. And doing that, to me starts to feel pretty comprehensive
michelle ifversen
it's good to have the constant monitoring, it's great to do that. But it's also, you know, important to note that we don't want people living in fear, right? We want them to be able to be go come home to their space to go to their workspace to feel inspired and not worried that there's something in their environment that's going to harm them. So it's really good. I feel like I give people a lot of peace of mind, especially with EMF testing. Like for instance, some people's dishwashers are very hot, right? And so a lot of people prep around their dishwasher. And if you're trying to conceive a baby, that's probably not a good thing. Right? So it's just good to know where, what your what's the pulse of your home, and how to operate and function. And then when you move to a new place, you know, figure that out again and then you're like you know how to navigate and and shield or just know, to not hang out in that particular area like a lot of people put their electrical panels or theirs Aren't leaders, your bedrooms or spaces where you spend a lot of time.
michelle ifversen
So that's that's a constant radio frequency coming at you all the time, preventing a lot of dirty electricity. And like I'm helping a woman on the coast who has a two acre property and she's building a home. She's got a she's got a two year old and she wants I'm consulting with her on placement of where the smart meters should be. And not near his bedroom, not near areas over there. You can opt out and not haven't had the radio frequency on there. She doesn't have any health issues, but it's just a preventative. You know, it's a it's a good, good way to know about that. So a lot of I do a lot of places that, you know, you'd be shocked where they there's no regulation here in the US that I just found now that the the newer homes are going to be more regulated where they put the gas meters, they have regular radio frequency as well. But what about all the existing homes? There's nothing about that there's no education, there's no shielding, there's no they don't try and opt out. So it's, it's, it's a hard fight sometimes to be able to reach a lot of people with this, but I prevail. I keep trying
Matt Morley
that you get into the study more strategically surround healthy interior design as a concept and almost sort of healthy healthy buildings and healthy real estate development or refurbishment projects. Right. Now, it's a term that I think we're seeing more and more of everybody has, I think their own interpretation of but when you talk about healthy interiors and healthy interior design, what do you interpret that to mean?
michelle ifversen
sourcing materials and furnishings and finishes that are non toxic, that are that are not going to off gas that are not going to give them trouble. I've had clients who just purchased a regular mattress and that given them sort of a thought body burden, toxic overload that's created them to be multiple chemical sensitive from one mattress. So it's just it's really good to and who knows their story before Do you not I mean, they could have had other past exposures but just a healthy interior really is about quality air. That's that's more than most important healthy building materials insulation is a huge one. And making sure that your your crawlspace your attic is is clean, and not not too not too damp, not too humid. And just really shoring it up in in, you know, the healthy design too. It's not just about the building material furnishings and things like that. It's it's space planning, right? It's bringing in greenery, it's its views, it's it's where you function and operate in your home.
michelle ifversen
I'm in my office which was a spare bedroom that we created. And there was no window towards the backyard of a lovely backyard with the with with a garden and beautiful vegetation that I had no access to in here when I moved in here. And so my husband built or made a window. So I could see it. And so it just it makes me want to come in here. And since I'm not in the field so much I'm I'm more inspired to be on the computer and have these podcasts and these meetings and work with my clients. They're so having a view of nature is is the landscape design, outside in inside out. So that's that's a really big piece of the way I design and I work with people on their landscape and their yards to their gardens. So they can be where they're sitting have a beautiful view, or there's a fountain there or a special plant that they like or a tree or something like that. So it's not it's sort of Yeah, it's it's a nice way to design and people seem to really appreciate that.
Matt Morley
That then you get into the concepts of biophilic design & biophilia. And I think what you're describing is really sort of direct forms of biophilia where it's it's live plants, but I know you're also so I indoor landscaping or indoor outdoor landscaping. But I know you've also done a project whereby you've co created it seems a collection of biophilic artworks, which to me would look like indirect forms of biophilia a way to connect with nature but through a print so the original artworks How did you go about that? What was the story behind that?
michelle ifversen
Yes, so very cool story. And it's, it's a It feels like the most wonderful project because it's My mother. My mother is a very renowned landscape architect who has done so many projects all throughout California Santa Barbara, Montecito, Napa Valley, the Bay Area. And here in Portland, and she is retired now and a few years ago, I've been I've been trying to, and she went to art school. I mean, she's a she's an amazing artist and painter, but she has not painted since she was in college. And so I was very inspired to, I bought her canvases and, and paints and things like that. And she slowly started getting into it. But then what really took off is that I'm a photographer, I've been a photographer for years, I was I started out when I was in art school in Europe.
michelle ifversen
I love photographing nature. I love photographing wega I hike, I'm very active, and I go and I photograph the macro of a mushroom close of a mushroom open. Just having that perspective, deeper into that that lens. And I would bring my photos, I would send them to her on my phone, and she would just be inspired and just this light bulb hit with her and she started painting them. And then she started painting indoor plants during the pandemic where I wasn't going out so much. So we kind of went in, right. And so she started painting these beautiful monsters and these palms and ferns and I put them all in my my studio here and we put them in the house and it's just really invoked such a positive mood. And so that was that sort of the start of our biophilic prints and we're opening up a store on Etsy and going to be selling them on the on the site as well and and just been just really have fun with it.
Matt Morley
Like it your husband making windows out into the back garden for you got your mom making up works. Seeing things now as we're looking ahead as we're sort of, I think there's this feeling of cautious optimism for the next six months. But how are you seeing things I know, it's been a tough hustle over the last 18 months for most of us working in this game. But it does feel like there's perhaps just this opportunity now, right? When what the themes we've been talking about for a while, uh, suddenly becoming a little bit more understood and appreciated. Are you picking up on that? Are you feeling optimistic for the next six months? How do you see it,
michelle ifversen
definitely, definitely, I feel like this is that it's a breath of fresh air and people are tired, they're hungry for it. You know, they are they've also spent a lot of time in their home environment, right, they've been like, and they realize that they can do better, and they want to do better, and they're still working, they're still working from home, they so they have income, a lot of people and so they want to dial in their homes, and then a lot of people have gone out into their gardens and gardening. So they really are taking pride and ownership into their own environment, which is feels really good. So it's for me as a environmental designer, I feel like it's just opened up this avenue of, of awareness and also desire to dial things in a little bit deeper and to and to realize that that's good money well spent, rather than, you know, an option of kind of a luxury, I should say it's looking more like they want to take care of their health, they want to take care of their their place. And they want to they want to source better materials. So it's the residential piece that I that we've talked about you and I is that, you know, having people you know, showing them how to do that and offering that service to be able to dive in deeper. So they're actually applying these things on a purchase just
Matt Morley
to give someone like a really top line in a few a few tips. Just the sort of the basics. We're talking someone who's perhaps not necessarily thinking today about creating a healthy home but right they have, as you say, over the last 18 months become more aware that actually yeah, it's important to think about that and perhaps they're not doing enough and therefore Okay, what are the what are the first few things that everyone should be thinking about?
michelle ifversen
indoor air quality, obviously, number one, test your air first. Find out what's really going on in your environment just to get a baseline, and then work with us on on going over the report and and really that's just like if you want to start somewhere and then if you know dial it in with an air purifier, you know and to reduce those vo C's and then figure out where the sources coming in, bring in more plants, definitely bringing more plants, you know put in a little humidor. It's called a monitor humidity monitor, and and check to see you know, how's your house functioning, you know, if you're living in Florida, it's going to be very high. So stick a dehumidifier in there. So just really kind of be one with your space. And then also notice where you spend your most of your time
michelle ifversen
For example, in your bedroom. When you wake up. What do you look at first thing I say it's a fantastic trick or tip I should say is put a photograph or put something inspiring are a beautiful plant or your you know your meditation station or something inspiring to look at when you wake up every morning. also pay attention to where you put your electronics. Try not to have them next to your bed. Turn your plate or your phone and your wireless router off at night. That's a good that's a good easy tip. Nice.
Matt Morley
Yeah. And the route is found the best way at least with that was finding these multi plug multi plugs with timers on so I set the timer so that just goes off at midnight. Totally goes back on if you do have Wi Fi Yeah, for sure. Like lots of great tips and information in there. Really cool. We'll link to everything on the show notes. And thank you so much again for your time. It's been awesome.
michelle ifversen
Thank you Matt. Really appreciate it. Love chatting with you. Thank you so much.